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Poll :: Dynamic economy

Remove Dynamic economy
17%
 17%  [ 19 ]
Take 50% cap off dynamic economy
8%
 8%  [ 9 ]
Leave Dynamic economy as it is
55%
 55%  [ 59 ]
I dont care
17%
 17%  [ 19 ]
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Tedi
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Beitrag Titel: Where have all the trader clans gone?
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 20:55
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I just dont see trader clans anymore HA, KSK etc

Has dynamic economy killed trading? Its been around for a while now, just interested to see what players think of it? does it need changing or does it need taken away? should the cap be removed?

I personally think the cap (50%) was a bad idea, it stops becoming truely dynamic when this cap is here, sure there are still some good routes but I think overall the incentive to trade has diminished

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 21:05
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in the last few days i trade with on of my chars... and the dynamic economy.. that doesn't bother me, but about the clans.. i think they have had with the time no funny anymore. Neutral

KSK -> disappeared
HA -> playing other games

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 21:18
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No... I belive that dynamic economy increase the trading because its more interesting for many people on this server... why you dont ask your friends like ste or other pirates why the trading is not so popular then other ways to make money?!

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 21:22
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the dynamic economie is the only thing, that make traders stay here.....

the only thing it the fact, that there is no trader clan, who really trades all day long

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 21:33
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Well.. maybe ask those players who are trading with 2 or more accs at the same time..

They are ruining the prices.. which they dont believe and cant or wont see..

Dynamic webmissions doent make that much sense anymore because those with highly goods are ruined after short time. So the webmissions will get you some money.. but thats thats not why you would trade that dyn. mission in the first place.. it was the combo between webmission and high prices at that station.

Another good example for misunderstood trading.. or in my opinion.. exploiting trading is sunnysam with his two farway traders that are flying VIPs from NL to Farway.. trading the goods to a local trader and killing themself.. he does it with one and two traders at the same time.
Farway is the best way to see, that the dynamic eco is abused in quiet some manners..
The prices at Farway are constantly ruined. Why? Because of abusive pirates trading.

Its not forbitten is the simple answer i always get.. there is no rule against it.. so they are fucking continuing with that crap!

Dont know if the admins even bother with that issue?

But the real reason why the most traders doent have any desire to trade anymore is simply because of the switchers.. there are so fucking damn much chars positioned within sirius that you can simply stop trading if you know that some special person or group is "hunting" you.
I quotation marked hunting because there IS NO REAL HUNTING anymore.
Beside some old school pirates which were inactive for a long time.. and dont know about the new "trends of the server" i dont give any pirate the credit of really know how to hunt.
Sometimes i miss the hunts of Raubvogel.. chasing you with one char through sirius...
At the moment.. for the last months.. the only pirate i remember really can hunt and hunting HA is Balllaman.

Get rid of the switching behavour on the server and out of the blue... trading will be getting popularer again!

The switching is the worst thing for traders..

Dyn. eco should be staying that way it is.. it is more fun atm that you can look around sirius and search for new little trades between your position and your next station you want to really trade stuff.

Never the less.. Dyn. eco changed trading BIG TIME!
Mostly those who are trading dyn. webmissions right now are new players which want to test the webmissions.. or those who are currently on a station which has a good route anyway.. but the number of dyn. webmissions definitly has fallen..
Why? Because most skilled traders are flying just simply without dyn. web. because there are more traderoutes with bigger money in it without traderoutes.

you dont see big trade convoys anymore like in 2007 or 2008 and are wondering why?
Because its simply not possible anymore.. at that time.. switching like only lallas did back then was a bad manner and almost no one would do it.
That behavour changed.. in 2007/8 Lallas was "following" you.. you knew that you have to kill him in every fucking system you go to..
BUT that was one guy.. one out of 100.
Now at the moment.. every older players does it.. even we HA do it.. or are forced to do it because otherwise you cant get rid of those switchers... because the just wont let go.

Those high money short routes are the biggest problem of dynamic eco.
The funny thing about that is, that most of those big money routes are runned down by pirate clans..
Like gold in NT by STE & Wolf
Like the indian trading the big stuff around Alpha and Theta etc.. as i mentioned before.. with more accounts at the same time.. He is doing it for quit some time.. like a hour or more.. and still isnt believing that his actions have any influence to the prices.. WHICH!.. i know because as a trader clan we are watching the prices closely and how they are really developing.. i see the connection.. halogen cant see them because most of the time he only looks in deep night when most people are asleep.. but i know how the dyn. eco works and i know enough so that i can say, that his actions are ruining the prices for almost the whole day.. dyn. eco is designed to circle back.. and it does.. but after he is done trading.. the prices will go down some time later.. (because Dyn. Eco reacts quit slowly).. he wont see the effect directly.. but the rest of the server will see it.

If you want to see more traders again on the server..

1. Focus on how we can fight switching,
2. how to make the dyn. webmissions more attractive again and
3. how to stop trade abusing!!!

That are three points will give you back more traders to hunt down Tedi


X-22~Blackbird hat folgendes geschrieben:
HA -> playing other games


Slightly true.. we are playing lots of other games.. but there are other factors.. like a war that cant be won Rolling Eyes .. and fighting it over and over just to win another time becomes boring after quit some time

Although most members which are not playing right now have RL issues or school business.


//EDIT:
While reading the answers.. another guess crossed my mind...

The dyn. eco isnt that well combinated with the dyn. eco because almost all new players or traders simply cant know the good routes or have the stations collected on their chars to see the good routes.. so they fly dyn. webmissions.. The problem with that is, that those standart FL routes with good money in it are ruined really fast with dyn. eco..
Single player people or from other servers only know the standart routes.. so they trade them.. they see.. ruined prices.. on almost every route they know.. so they stop trading.
That leaves the old traders with the really good routes..
Without new traders.. trading will die .. slowly.. but it will die..

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 21:43
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aahh.. double post.. edting the new post directly into the first one.

@admin. This post can be deleted.. has no use anymore

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 22:35
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Hey Tedi, Sokar words are true words ! No comment needed ! 100% Signed !

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 22:41
Antworten mit ZitatNach oben

Sokar hat folgendes geschrieben:

The prices at Farway are constantly ruined. Why? Because of abusive pirates trading.

[...]

Those high money short routes are the biggest problem of dynamic eco.
The funny thing about that is, that most of those big money routes are runned down by pirate clans..
Like gold in NT by STE & Wolf


ironic Exclamation

pirates have no traders to tax, because they trade the most profitable routes themselves Rolling Eyes

@Tedi: now you know, where all the trader clans are gone

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 14.12.09 22:56
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It just sucks to Trade these Days.Like Sokar said, every Group/Person that "hunts" you, makes it almost Impossible to Trade properly.There was always a Risk of being caught, but it seems that "Risk" grew up to "There will be some Redneck!".Every damn Asshole, no matter on which Side or Faction switches around and does every lame Shit to catch you, no matter how or where.

Just think of the Collision`n Kick thing.

Dynamic Economy is a good Thing, I guess.

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 00:34
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I would like to hear a admin opinion on this topic... how much of this shit is concering them or do they even get notice of..

And as nosfi offered to me.. i'm working on a concept to destroy the multi account trading.. its hard.. but maybe it will work.. anyone with suggestions is welcomed on HA TS.

The bigger problem is the switching problem.. If that would be fixed.. it would be a whole new server.. A MUCH BETTER SERVER!
Advantages: Trading would be reborn what it was.. Bountyhunts would be more fair than right now.. hunting would again become what the word means by definition!
@Syd: not only for me.. that would be the most "worth it" project to implement.. even before thinking about new features, ships or flak turrents..
If you want some impressions or thoughts of mine.. because i already thought a lot about it and its problems.. Your Welcome on HHC.

One of the big problems is the mentalitly.. "THERE IS NO RULE AGAINST IT".. so i'm allowed to do it.
That kind of thinking doesnt only apply for trading but works in almost every part of the server.
Sometimes i'm wondering if only the ingameplayers worry about some things or the server is supposed to have a "do what ever you want"- mentality.. (personal note: only if you go to far we'll stop you.. if we can)

@Ping: You would wonder how active STE became with trading... most people dont see it.. most because they are not looking that closely at this topic.. (cause to them trading is boring etc.. )
But as a trader you look what other routes are traded and also try to connect who is trading those routes..
Sometimes STE seems to me more like trader clan then terror clan.. if you exclude Planet NT or NB.. you simply can call STE a traderclan

And a good examplee how the server looks to oldschool players, which where inactive for a long time..
One of our members was trading again... i went to bed... next day in TS.. "Gonna go again?".. "NO fucking way.. not with this lame server... "

@Admins: If you wanne work on the traders problems.. you're most welcome on our TS. Kirki already heard a lot of our concerns.. but it would be nice if also some other admins would involve them with this issue..

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 00:59
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Well, the problem seems to be the mentality of players and char switching. Both problems are not easily solved, and maybe never will be.

Is there a proposal on how to deal with it?

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 02:00
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Perhaps some function like with bountyhunt and escort with /transport for traders, /pirate for pirates, /hunt for law enforcers.

Example like:
/trade if you sucessfully choose this 5 systems away same as clanmission and you sucessfully bring good to the system than you get certain bonus (maybe dynamic VIP or something), traders who use this function become invulnerable against all players unless, this players use function /pirate, than they can kill this traders, if they catch them they get that bonus, if they switch char they cancel their mission.
Hunters and law enforcers type /hunt or /escort and they can hunt this pirates and they get certain poercent on each pirate killed lol.

Its an idea how to prevent people switching chars get rewarded for real hunting pirating and trading... all this missions end if player f1 and reselect char... otherwise it would be self sustained system keep evolving.
Than it could be added similar system as with flshell, pirate gets money based on killed transport guy level char, hunter gets money based on pirate level char and vice versa...

As for invulnerability i would add this only on transports, fighters would be still vulnerable but if someone not included in system /hunt, /pirate kills doesnt lose the bonus and neither does get the bonus... only if both parties aggre they are included in reward party.
But Traders are indestructable by all chars not included in this system and you can access this system only every 1-2 hours if you reswitch the chars on same id or ip...abuses would be reported ... or this chars who can participate in this system should be connected in char manager to prevent changing id/ip and entering /pirate system in another sirius system

P.S. Damn my head hurts i can explain later what i meant with all this but i was just brainstorming how to solve this and make this thing run again without char switching as sokar said.

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 04:00
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well Sokar said it all.

Solution, only if prices are set individually then it may work, example, someone running the same route more the 10 times, the money goes way down, but not for other people. (multiple trading ships will be a problem anyway), and the constant switching will be hard to deal with as well.

I tried the dync, trading, and never liked it, but again i don't like to trade, i better do missions at a planet, or Nommad BS, 3 hrs of missions equal 10 mill, where in trading it gets only to 6 or 7 at most.

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 06:09
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You see.. thats the great thing about trading. Real traders who know their stuff like to play with that imbalance. You have to know what you are doing, when and where to go to get more money.

And its even more fun! The old vanilla trading system was very simple.. Where am i in Sirius.. ah.. there.. i have to go to station A.. from A i can go to B or C.. from there.. i go to D or B.. from B i fly back to A.
It was almost a clean circle or maybe you should say.. there were some circles.. everybody known them.. everybody was trading them.. most money.. +webmission. Thats it. It was more a trucker job.. now trading is alive and not that simple.. maybe thats also a factor why the number of traders is going down.. ( Ask HA.. we can train you . ... if we want to Razz )
I guess Halogen with his x lvl89 chars only know 3-5 real trade routes.. mostly because his traders are always flying about 3-5 different routes.. the most value ones (note: shortroutes are no real trade routes for me)

Your way, crash, could be a beginning.. but forbitting something for 1-2 hours could not be the way i think.
Making ships invulnerable is a bad way i think.. and HHC will find a way to abuse it.. there is always a way.. i know.. you know

The issue with more than one trader is another story.. BUT..
Simplest way i think would be to negate the arguments of those who are trading with more chars.. They always say.. there is no rule against it.. it not forbitten..
NEGATE THAT: Its forbitten to trade with two accounts! (edit: Two or more xD)
With this it could be very easy to solve things.. because most people wouldnt do it anymore.. because its against server rules..
If someone trades with same IP (dont know if proxis would scrue it up), it could be detected automaticly.. 2 Accs+1IP ->> atm no convoy.. so that can be detected.
This could also be used to alarm admins that one player is trading with 2 accounts.

As nosfi said.. he only wants a solution in which he has not that very much work to do... that above is just a little part of my plan to get rid of the multi trading people. I started writing the plan directly after nosfi asked me to.. but i had no time to finish it yet.
We'll get to that later.. Part of it would also can be used for the switching problem..


But Switching is the much more complicated problem.. to apply to the good behavour on the server wont work.. war and enemies are more important then principles to most HHC Players.

Back to crashs idea.. another problem that comes into my mind is that if you have to type /trade and pirate is typing /pirate.. there must be a kind of signal that that trader is trading this way.. and so there must be a signal for the trader, that is hunted.. but that would ruin the feeling on HHC that you dont know who is hunting you.
And even with the invulnerability.. there are some ways to slower you down.. even if you cant be hit... shooting tradelanes etc..

And.. normally i'm not a good thinker of how to abuse things.. but one thing came up to my mind pretty easy.. attack clanbase while /trade .. rest i dont have to explain i think ^^

The switching problem is that one, that i havent figured out yet..

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 07:00
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For the switching there is no way, unless you are ban for some time (IP) after you used the /hunter,/pirate,/trader. If you f1 you get ban, but that will be a lot of work , so in that there is no way to solve the problem.

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Siloxis







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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 09:22
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I think one of the main problems is, that there is no effective Defence to Freighters like the "Train". Okay you can pay for some escort, but if there are 5 Pirates they shoot you down bevor u can write "Shit" into the Spacechannel ^^

Of course you can't give the Frighters so much defense (shields, better hull) so that an full fittet Pirate Squad couldnt get it down in an acceptable time, but at time you go really fast down, so i think

Okay, i'm new to this server but thats my sight of the things. Maybe i didn't see enough of this game

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Sokar
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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 09:50
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You may be new but you mention a important point.. within the last years the transporters were downgraded a lot!

Not only reduced the hull.. the anti reload protection forbits you to fight while reload. For normal fighters that might be ok.. run or fight is now a one sided option.. because you have no choice anyway. You have to run anyway. Fighting is simply not possible. In the old days.. i know i say that alot.. but just because its true.. you could gun a fighter down with a 400 transport.. but even with the bigger hull you had to reload..

Back then the pirates started wining.. "Mi mi mi.. traders can defend themself.. mi mi mi PvP Trader.. MiMiMi".. so admins downgraded transporters.. the needed reload protection hit the last pin into the casket for fighting traders.
For new players.. maybe read this:
http://www.freelancerserver.de/v2/viewtopic.php?t=15583&highlight=protestnote

If you want to investigate the reasons why trading became unpopular.. that change is one of the first steps..

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 10:41
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Hm I dont think that switching is main Problem was ever there since FL exists. Why it should now be the reason for leaving traderclans o.O
Maybe more dynamic economy or that traders in most cases cant defense themself.
Dynamic economy is only good if you are longer time on server but it needs much time to find out enough traderoutes to have ever a good one if you want to make money and I think that even old player on server still dont understand it cause some of them are still using vanilla traderoutes....
Sometimes it also sucks that it is still bugged and show routes that dont exists and you first find it out after you docked at targetstation...
Now to I want to come short to the "big short" routes they are not as good as you all say in my opinion on missions you can still make more money in shorter time....

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 10:43
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guys i dont think that you can handle the switch problem with baning ip's or smth like that - THIS will kill the server totally! imagine you get a ban each time you get kicked (it is like f1) or you are trading/flying missions and your base is under attack - you cant do anything ... or help clan m8'S - you cant because your ip is banned etc. than it will end up that clans with the most players and trough that the most ships ingame will have advantage. and everybody will idle somewhere because maybe someone comes around ...(clanbase idling extreme for example)

to many rules and borders will lead to a server like Discovery ...

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 10:54
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Thanks for the Informations.

Of course a transporter should be what it's name says, a vehicle for trading, no battleship. In most SpaceGames Turrets are for destroying little astroids to avoid a crash. In Freelancer's case (because the throughflying astroids don't do so much damage) i think it's okay that a transporter has no weapons.

But really bad is the Armor, in your linked thread was mentioned what i feel (Blechdose ^^). More Armor or a Frighter only "Anti-Rocket" system would be a nice improvement.

A Example:
Yesterday i started from New Tokyo, full with diff. things. In front off the planet where three pirates, noch chance: down before i reached a distance of 2k off NT ^^
Okay thats PvP it's just okay. Next try only one pirate left i docked off startet Cruise Engine and activatet "automatic rocket defence" after 10k i was out of Range (okay killed two systems later Razz) But the problem was: Out of counters...

Maybe a good idea would be to give a transporter/Frighter more Counter... (dont know the English Word for the AntiRocket Thing...). Think like 200 or so. Not too much but if u have to flee only one time 50 Counters are fast startet, in action u often klick more than one time and the autimatic spams every time 3 of them ^^

Okay maybe noob misstake to spam so much counters. Last played FL three years ago ^^

If the english is too bad i can translate into ger
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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 11:47
Antworten mit ZitatNach oben

Countermeasures is the english word, in short CMS.


Just read through the old thread where we protested against the downgrade of the transport. 18 month later is a good time to sum up:
Transport: First downgrade has been made less notching, but still my opinion is the same as back then: the "new" transport is too weak for proper trading action.

AT: Wodka's idea about players switching from transport to AT is still logical - and still it is hindered by the existing docking problems of the AT. Beside the fact, that the AT is as agile as a planet...

Train: One point most traders back then guessed wrong. The train advanced to the most used tradeship, even without escort. This happened due to short trade turns that arose with the dynamic economy and due to the still notching downgrade of the transport. As vodka said, there's no more a freighter "to rule them all", we have to choose a ship that fits our needs, but sometimes I think this' a choice between plague and cholera.



After all I have to quote Sokar, even though he surely wont like it this time:
sokar hat folgendes geschrieben:
Naja.. wir werden ja sehen, wie sich das Händlerverhalten entwickeln wird..

Ich setze einfach mal eine Prognose ab.. es wird kaum noch Dauertrader bzw. größere Traderclans geben.. die neuen Features werden von den neuen Spielern für eine gewisse Zeit ausprobiert.. wie man alles mal ausprobiert, wenn man neu ist.. und täglich werden nur diejenigen traden, die es aus Gewohnheit tun, für die bei Freelancer nur das Handeln interessant ist(sofern die nicht den Server wechseln.. einziger Anreiz, der an HHC bindet is das Dynamic-System) und natürlich die FL Süchtigen.. Ansonsten werden sehr wahrscheinlich nur noch Clanmissis durch die Gegend fliegen..

Mit Missis verdient man schneller und einfacher Geld.. der Anreiz am Traden wird bald nur noch das Katz- und Mausspiel sein... wobei dabei auch fragwürdig ist, weshalb man das Spiel in einem Opferschiff spielen soll, anstatt in nem Schiff mit dem man sich wehren kann..

Ok.. beim durchlesen wirkt mein Post wirklich etwas düster.. aber auf lange Sicht



He's been predicting, that many traders would leave the server because of those changes. And now, one and a half year later it seems like he's been right, or almost right -.-

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 11:57
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There could be a ban of dmg bann after each char switch - applied only to freighter classes.

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 12:10
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holy fucking shit! Once again... i was right after all xD Holy crap.. I LOVE that sentence: "I said so!"
I should become kind of economy researcher or weather man xD The first one that would be right xD

What do we learn of that quote? Mr. Green
Even he looks arrogant and much too self-esteemed.. listen to that nerd.. he knows his stuff Grins Fies Kirre

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 13:04
Antworten mit ZitatNach oben

Sokar hat folgendes geschrieben:
Slightly true.. we are playing lots of other games.. but there are other factors.. like a war that cant be won Rolling Eyes .. and fighting it over and over just to win another time becomes boring after quit some time


if a war becomes sensless just sign up a ceasefire ... YES you can.

@ topic
i would change the dyn. eco feature a little bit in the direction of rpg:

1) limited buying of goods.

e.g. only 5000 VIPS per day available on Manhatten, only 10000 items of weapons at detroit, only 10000 items of gold at arranmore, only 5000 engine components at.... and so on and so on. from the rpg point of view it would make sense because resources are endless!

2) first, second, third delivery bonus

every base needs a minimum number of goods to run its business. so its very important to get it and so the bases should pay more for it. e.g. xenos are very important for willard to research things. so willard really needs e.g. 1000 a day and so they are able to pay 30% more for it and then the normal price for the rest.

3) priceing in generell
normally if you buy more of a good, it will be cheaper per unit. the hhc dyn. eco does the opposite. if you buy a lot on a base prices are increasing. better is that both prices are going to decrease. buying a lot on manhatten -> lower prices, selling a lot at farway -> lower prices too because it means buying a lot for the guys on farway.

atm prices are increasing when you buy a lot and decreasing when you sell a lot and at the end of the day the route is unprofitable.

e.g. with 2% of decrease per unit (my idea):
buy.....sell.......prof
120.....1600.....1480
118.....1568.....1450
115.....1537.....1421
113.....1506.....1393
111.....1476.....1365
108.....1446.....1338
106.....1417.....1311
104.....1389.....1285
102.....1361.....1259
100.....1334.....1234
98.......1307.....1209


e.g. with 2% of increase/decrease per unit (hhc dyn eco.):
buy.....sell.......prof
120.....1600.....1480
122.....1568.....1446
125.....1537.....1412
127.....1506.....1379
130.....1476.....1346
132.....1446.....1314
135.....1417.....1282
138.....1389.....1251
141.....1361.....1221
143.....1334.....1191
146.....1307.....1161



regards

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Beitrag Titel:
Verfasst am: 15.12.09 13:24
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It's the idea of the DE to force players to trade different routes. With decreasing prices by buying goods, the profit will stay a longer time at an acceptable level, this leads to less different routes. Got the point?

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